LONDON. "In the middle of the night, I was woken because poor Ukrainian president Volodymir Zelensky was extremely concerned about what was happening at the nuclear power plant Zaporizhzhia", the British Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, reveals in this exclusive interview with La Repubblica, Die Welt and El Pais in Number 10, Downing Street. 

"He rang me to say something that I agreed with profoundly", continues Johnson, "which is: an attack on a nuclear power plant or an explosion at a nuclear power plant are clearly a matter of our common European health and safety. Our security is equally involved, equally jeopardized by such an attack. We remember what happened with Chernobyl, the radioactive clouds spread over the whole continent, and indeed, also to North America, as far as I can remember. There is clearly a risk. Although the incident has been contained and the IAEA says there's no excessive radioactivity, I am concerned about how we stop a disaster: there are other Ukrainian plants and there are certainly other Ukrainian radioactive nuclear waste sites. One of the things we need to consider is how we're going to work together to prevent such a disaster. I don't think the answers are easy, but we need to work on it". "The UN and the IAEA on the ground", he invokes, "are going to be extremely important”.

Boris Johnson looks quite worried, but still hopeful in light of events at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant last night. "We need to work on it urgently. One of the reasons why Putin has, I think, miscalculated so badly in this appalling war is because he underestimated badly the willingness of the Ukrainians to fight and to defend their territory, their belief in their country, their love of their country. He misunderstood the character of the Ukrainians and of their resolve, and he underestimated President Zelensky as well, he's been extraordinary. Putin also underestimated Western unity, and the governments of all the countries represented around this table have really worked together, very effectively, to produce a package of economic sanctions that has had a very considerable effect on Russia". 

The British Prime Minister, who has been through the "Partygate" scandal at home and he is under investigation by Scotland Yard, is confident about the effectiveness of Western sanctions: "For the first time, we're seeing a genuine impact on the Russian economy. The fall of the ruble has been considerable. The rise in interest rates is clearly punishing for ordinary Russian consumers, for people. Then the effect on the stock market, which has been closed for days. Just simple things like not being able to use Apple Pay. All these are starting to mount up. The message I want to get over to everybody is that the UK will continue to work flat out with our European friends every day, every hour, to make sure that we intensify where necessary. I think the package has already been very strong".

But what about Roman Abramovich, still untouched by sanctions? "None of us want to live in a country where the state can take your house off you without a very high burden of proof and due process", Johnson explains, "there's no point say, yeah, we're going to go after him, and then you come up against the brick wall of lawyers. So we have to get it right. We're also trying not to just make this about one individual. Top line of what our package on Monday will do is that the measures that you have against individual oligarchs in Europe will essentially allow us to catch them too. Plus the extra things that we are doing that Europe hasn't caught up with or is not prepared to do, like Swift.”

But here come bad news. "There's plainly more to be done with sanctioning some banks, with tightening Swift, with coming down harder on some individuals and we want to make sure that we graduate and we intensify. Because it feels to me", Johnson admits, "as though Vladimir Putin – and it's clear from what's happening – has decided to double down. He sees no way out of the cul-de-sac that he's in, except to continue with the destruction, the pulverizing of innocent populations, in innocent European cities. So we will have to respond together with an intensified package. I also want to thank and to congratulate other European governments, all of whom have now really stepped up to the plate in delivering support for the Ukrainians and support for the Ukrainian right to self defense. We must not accept the narrative of Vladimir Putin that this is about him versus NATO, or him versus the West."

"That is not the case", Johnson makes it clear. "This is about his irrational and catastrophic attempt to crush an innocent country and the legitimate right of the people of that country to defend themselves and the legitimate right of other European People to support their resistance. That's what it's about."

Prime Minister, you mentioned the risk for the European cities in terms of what is going on in Ukraine. After what happened last night, is a nuclear war or a nuclear incident closer or more likely?
“I think we need to distinguish very sharply between two things. The whole question of a nuclear exchange, as it were, the use of nuclear weapons, this is a distraction from what's happening in Ukraine, which is, I'm afraid, a brutal and barbaric attack on innocent people. I don't think that we should be sidetracked by some of the rhetoric that we've heard. The issue is to do with the safety of nuclear power plants and nuclear waste. This came up when the Russian troops encircled and captured Chernobyl. We were all very worried then last night, plainly, President Zelensky was extremely worried about what was happening at Zaporizhzhia. He thought that the plant was in the possession of Chechen Guerillas and that they would do something very irresponsible. I'm concerned. We have to work together to think of ways in which we can avert that disaster, because I do think that this would be a pan European disaster. The legitimate concerns of all European countries are engaged.”

You mentioned also Chechens fighters. It has been reported in the Times that there are mercenaries trying to kill President Zelenskyj. Are you concerned about that?
“I am very concerned and I think that President Zelenski has been heroic, he has risen to the challenge in a way that has earned him the admiration of the world. His people are very moved by the way he's conducted himself. I think his own personal safety is a matter of huge importance, everybody has to do everything that we can to help him. But plainly there are very sinister and powerful forces that want to try to compromise that safety. That's a tragedy, and those who are behind that must be held to account”.

But how can we protect the nuclear plants and Zelenskyj?
“I think that the answers are very difficult. We have to make clear to the Kremlin that a civilian nuclear disaster in Ukraine, another Chernobyl, is a disaster for Russia as well as for everybody. Therefore, I think that some system of protecting those plants, some system of ensuring that radioactivity levels are monitored by international authorities, such as the UN and the IAEA on the ground, is going to be extremely important”.

British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace said that Putin has gone “full tonto”. Do you agree with that? Is this a cold-blood strategy, or, as you just said, he's in a cul-de-sac, and he’s in a desperate and probably nervous state of mind. 
“I think he's very difficult to read into it, to make a window into his soul, and to try and imagine what he's thinking, really. Like you, I get all sorts of information about the way his government works, the system or the non-existent checks and balances in his system, the arbitrary way in which he's able to make decisions, and that's extremely worrying. But I think the issue is that he's clearly made miscalculations. I think he's probably a lack of real feel for what life is really like for people in Ukraine and how people in Ukraine really feel about their country. It's possible that he hasn't been there for quite a long time, as I'm sure all of us have. There was there was a logical problem, because I knew that the Ukrainians would fight and anybody who's been there would instinctively have understood that. Maybe he's allowed himself to become out of touch on that issue. Now he's made that mistake. There has to be a way out, there has to be solution that doesn't involve the total destruction, or him continuing on this path of total destruction. But I'm afraid, logically, it's very, very hard to see what that solution is. That's why I've come to the conclusion that he must fail”.

French President Emmanuel Macron is the only Western leader who's still talking to Putin. Do you think that this is a good thing? What do you hear from the French president makes you very concerned?
“I think that the unity of the West has been one of the most important things. Before the invasion began, we were working together with Emmanuel to understand what the implications would be. It is very, very important that we continue to work, particularly with the Americans to have a common series of assumptions and priorities, about the conflict. The lesson of history from, you know, 1914, to Bosnia and beyond is that, sadly, the most wretched European conflicts are not solved without some measure of American interest and leadership. That's going to be very, very important as well”.

So is it good that Macron is still talking to Putin?
“I think it's important that the unity of the West is preserved. I’m sure that Emmanuel is is not diverging from that unified position”.

Prime Minister, you said that Putin must fail. But shouldn’t he also fall, losing power, to end this invasion faster? How can the West make it happen? Should we, as West, encourage the Russian opposition to revolt?
“Number one. I think it's absolutely vital that there are two things we must frame strictly. We must not be trapped into framing this as in any way a conflict between the Russian people, or Russia, and the West, or even between Putin and NATO, or Putin and the West. That is not what this is about that. So that's one category we must not fall into. This is about helping the Ukrainian people to protect their themselves, to protect their lives, their families and their independence. Number two: I think it's very important that people see that this is the sum-total of the agenda. There is no further agenda. We can't think like that. Events in Moscow or Russian politics are simply unforeseeable. In fact, that would be a total, a total distraction. Let me be very clear: this is not about trying to do anything to shorten the political career of anyone in Moscow. On the contrary, this is about simply trying to protect the people of Ukraine, and give them the help that they need. If we think in that way, we will damage our chances of achieving what we need to do”.

Prime minister, you said in the House of Commons that Putin is a war criminal. Should the West aspire to put this war criminal in front of an International court, like Milosevic or the Nurnberg trial?
“What I certainly believe is that there is a close analogy between Putin's behavior and the last years of Slobodan Milosevic. It’s very interesting that both leaders had been in power for a long time, both increasingly autocratic, both seeking to shore up their domestic position, and found a great nationalist cause. Slobodan Milosevic identified the birthplace of Serbian nationalism, indeed the Serbian nation, in Kosovo Poljie, and he inspired his people with this misbegotten idea that it needed to be rescued and liberated. There's a very close sort of analogy between that catastrophic mistake, and what the President of Russia has been saying about Kiev and the origins of Russian religion, culture, civilization and his objectives in Ukraine. When it comes to the International Criminal Court, that's a matter for them. There would have to be the gathering of evidence. If there is evidence of the use of illegal munitions, cluster bombs, barrel weapons, this clearly will have to be brought to the Netherlands”.

Who's gonna enforce that?
“I think we must be quite limited in what we're setting out to do. Because I've never seen in a long time, such a clear difference between right and wrong in international politics, or such a clear difference between good and good and evil. The minute we start to introduce all sorts of other political considerations in Moscow, or whatever geostrategic considerations, then we lose the sharpness and the focus.”

As you said Milosevic wanted Kosovo, the final target of Vladimir Putin is Kiev because of the very origin of the Orthodox faith. What is the future for Europe in this situation?
“I think you put your finger on the nightmare that we face. That is correct. When I say that Putin must fail, I think there is a sense in which he has already failed. That miscalculation about how Ukrainians feel about their country now makes it impossible for him to make this misbegotten adventure, this invasion, into a practical success of any kind. But, you know, it is not for us to try to find the way forward for him. That's something he will have to think about. What we can do, is do our level best - as European countries are doing is really moving and impressive - is help the Ukrainians and continue to apply economic pressure”. 

Personalities like Garry Kasparov are already talking about "genocide" in Ukraine. The situation is getting worse and worse. You ruled out a no-fly zone the other day in Poland, because it would be a very dangerous, direct confrontation between the West and Russia. How many deaths and how much brutality from Putin can we allow? What's the red line until the West will act?
“I don't think anybody would have imagined, a few weeks ago, that so many European countries would now be following what the UK did, sending weapons in the way that they are. I don't think anybody would have imagined that German Chancellor Olaf Scholz would have made a speech like the one he did and Germany would be in the position that it now is. Things are changing. That's because of people's outrage and disgust of what is happening in Ukraine. What I'm trying to say is that the West has already moved a long way, and it's very, very united. But it is still a long day’s march, as they say, to the idea of any kind of direct confrontation between Western forces…between UK, Italian, German, Spanish armed forces, and Russian forces. The consequences of such engagements would be very, very hard to control and to manage. We wouldn't know where it would end. The risks of miscalculation are huge. You talk about a red line… we have to keep a conceptual boundary in what we're doing. That doesn't mean that we don't care passionately, or that we won’t do everything that we can, within the parameters that we've set, to try to change the odds in favour of the victims. We will try to change the odds in favor of the victims. But I think that there is no Western country that I know of, that is currently considering sending combatants to that theather of conflict. That's just the reality. That it's not on the agenda.”

So the no-fly zone is still ruled out.
"I think the problem with the no-fly zone is just that it does logically entail the shooting down of Russian planes and then, again, you're locked into a logic of confrontation.”

Do you think all EU countries should now stop buying any gas and oil from Russia? 
“This is incredibly difficult. It's important that we in the UK do not seem to preach to countries that clearly have a massive reliance on Russian hydrocarbons. It’s not just in Germany and Italy: all European countries have some dependence. We need a collective European strategy and a Western strategy to diversify away from this dependence. Listening to Chancellor Scholz it's clear that he agrees with that. I think that there will be a program. There will be a timetable, and it won't be easy. But there are other sources: there are in North America, in Canada, in the Gulf. There are ways of doing this. There are ways in which we can work together to produce more renewables. It's not easy, and our electorates will find it tough. But I think that in every disaster there is an opportunity. I think that collectively, we need to move away from it and not to be beholding that. That is probably the view of the majority of the European governments now and a growing proportion of the electorate, even if it's a difficult transition.”

Can China be of some help after Russia's invasion in Ukraine?
"I have not spoken to Xi directly in recent weeks, but we obviously do have contact with the Chinese on all levels. So that continues. I think what the last few days are showing, including with the UN Security Council, with the General Assembly, is that this isn't about Europe. This is about the world. This is about right and wrong. It's about principles of the international order. So we do need China to be on board with condemning that, same as we need  Australia and New Zealand and Japan being some of the strongest countries on this, despite the fact it doesn't affect their neighborhood, because this is about bigger things than that."

And what about the Indo-Pacific? Is the centre of our security now Europe?
"We've always said that we are hugely committed to the Euro-Atlantic security. That's why we're the biggest contributor to NATO in Europe. So even with the importance of the Indo-Pacific, European security has always remained at the center of our security, and we're really seeing that now."

The Ukraine crisis, in some sense, has mended a lot of wounds and a lot of broken relations between the UK and the European Union. Would you say that? After all that happened after Brexit? 
“All crises reveal the true relationships. Sometimes, if a family goes through some big trauma, then the real strength of the affection between the members of the family and the way they work together can sometimes suddenly be revealed again. I think that's probably what's happening now. […] The last few weeks have shown that NATO is stronger than ever, more relevant than ever. When we went to Estonia or Poland, just this week, you feel it there. They want NATO. Putin has not only miscalculated regarding the people of Ukraine: if he thought he was going to get less NATO by invading Ukraine, he's actually getting more NATO. Nato is going to be closer, they're going to be bigger. Defense spending is going up. So he's ending up with the exact opposite of what he wanted.”

So, about Brexit, you will not be talking about Article 16 in the next months…
"(laughs) Since you bring it up… Look, you really want to ask about it? I will tell you that, in all sincerity, I think that it is something that we could solve with goodwill and common sense. But we can't go on with a system where, you know… It really feels pénible to be talking about this subject now”.