David Grossman: “My heart is broken, but i must say it: it’s genocide”

In the time elapsed between the initial contact for this interview and the moment it actually took place—less than 24 hours—103 people died in Gaza: 47 while trying to reach food aid, 7 from starvation, and the others during various Israeli military operations. David Grossman read those numbers, just like I did, on Haaretz. And that is where this conversation begins. It is, he explains, driven by a feeling of “inevitability. I feel an inner urgency to do the right thing, and now is the time to do it,” he tells us. “Sometimes you can only truly understand things by talking about them.”

Let’s begin with the numbers. What do you think when you read the death toll in Gaza?

“It sickens me. Even though I know those numbers go through Hamas’s filter and Israel cannot be solely blamed for all the atrocities we are witnessing. However, reading in a newspaper or hearing in conversations with friends in Europe the association of the words ‘Israel’ and ‘famine’—coming from our own history, our supposed sensitivity to human suffering, the moral responsibility we’ve always claimed to hold toward every human being, not just toward Jews—this is devastating. And it throws me into confusion: not morally, but personally. I ask myself: How did we get here? How did we come to be accused of genocide? Just uttering that word - genocide – in reference to Israel, to the Jewish people; the fact that this an association can even be made should be enough to tell us that something very, very wrong is happening to us”.

"An Israeli Supreme Court judge once said that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there you go, it happened to us: the occupation has corrupted us. I am absolutely convinced that Israel’s curse began with the Occupation of the Palestinian territories in 1967. Maybe people are tired of hearing about it, but it’s the truth. We’ve become very strong militarily and we’ve fallen into the temptation that comes with absolute power: the idea that we can do anything we want”.

You used the forbidden word: ‘genocide’. In an article published a few days ago in Haaretz, Israeli legal scholar Orit Kamir called what’s happening in Gaza ‘a betrayal of the victims of the Holocaust’. In The New York Times, Israeli historian Omer Bartov wrote: ‘I am a genocide scholar, I know it when I see it. What is happening in Gaza is genocide’. Do you agree?

"For many years, I refused to use that word: genocide. But now I can’t help myself, after what I’ve read in the papers, the pictures I’ve seen, and after talking to people who were there. But you see, this word is used mainly to give a definition or for legal purposes; instead, I want to speak as a human being who was born inside this conflict, whose entire life has been devastated by the Occupation and war. I want to speak as someone who did everything in his power to avoid calling Israel a genocidal state. And now, with immense pain and with a broken heart, I must accept it is happening right before my eyes. ‘Genocide’. This word is an avalanche: once you say it, it just keeps growing. And it brings even more destruction and more suffering”.

Where do we go from here?

We must find a way out of this association between Israel and genocide. First and foremost, we must not allow people with anti-Semitic feelings to use and manipulate that word. And then we must ask ourselves: are we capable as a nation, are we strong enough to resist the germs of genocide, of hatred, of mass killing? Or should we surrender to the power that guarantees we are the strongest? I hear people like Smotrich and Ben Gvir (two far-right Israeli ministers) say that we have to rebuild settlements in Gaza: what are they talking about? Don’t they remember what happened when we were there, when Hamas killed hundreds of Israeli civilians, women and children, and we were unable to protect them? We didn’t leave Gaza out of generosity, we left because we couldn’t protect our own people.The great mistake of the Palestinians lies in the fact they could have turned Gaza into a thriving place. Instead, they succumbed to fanaticism and used it as a launchpad for rockets against Israel. Had they chosen a different path, perhaps Israel would have eventually been pressured to give up the West Bank too, ending the Occupation years ago. But the Palestinians, like us, could not resist the temptation of power: they shot at us, we shot at them, and we both ended up in the same place. If both of us – Israelis and Palestinians – had been more mature politically, if we had been braver, reality could have been completely different”.

Why aren’t millions of people taking to the streets in Israel to stop all of this? The famine, the massacres… Why is it always just a small minority?

"Because not seeing is easier. And giving in to fear and hatred is very easy. Even more so after October 7: you were here during those days, you can understand when I say it was horrible. So many people I know abandoned our shared leftist values that day: they gave in to fear. And suddenly their lives became easier; they felt embraced by the majority; they no longer needed to think. Without realizing that the more you give in to fear, the more isolated and hated you become outside Israel. Life is the story we tell ourselves: it’s true for everyone. But when you’re Israel, surrounded by neighbours who don’t want you in the region –like Syria – and you start losing the support of Europe, the isolation increases, and you find yourself in a trap that gets deeper and deeper, from which it is difficult to escape. In fact, one from which you may not escape at all. The silence of the majority could sweep everyone away, Israelis and Jews alike, including those who disagree".

You know what happened recently at a service area near Milan (where a man wearing a kippah was assaulted and heavily insulted by customers); and to the ship that wasn’t allowed to dock in Greece. Israeli artists and writers have had their invitations abroad withdrawn, even those who were critical of the government. Do you ever worry it might happen to you?

"Of course I do. It would be a sign of the times we live in. It would be regrettable. But it won’t stop me from saying what I think: I believe sharing ideas like mine at this moment is essential: for Israel, and for those who love Israel".

“You said everything began with the Occupation. You wrote about it in The Yellow Wind, back in 1987. Let’s talk about the West Bank: in Europe, people still speak of a two-state solution, but you just have to leave Jerusalem to see there’s no space left for two states. The settlements are eating away Palestinian land…

"I remain desperately committed to the idea of the two-state solution -mainly because I see no other option. It will be complex, and both we and the Palestinians will need to act with political maturity in the face of the inevitable attacks that will come. But there is no other plan”.

What do you think of President Macron’s proposal to recognize a Palestinian state?

"I think it’s a good idea, and I don’t understand the hysteria it triggered here in Israel. Maybe dealing with a real state, with real obligations, not an ambiguous entity like the Palestinian Authority, will have its advantages. Of course, strict conditions would be necessary: no weapons. And a guarantee of transparent elections, from which anyone supporting violence against Israel would be banned”.

At the end of our conversation, I’d like to ask you to reply to those people – and there are many – who say Israeli intellectuals haven’t done or said enough to stop what is happening in Gaza.

“I think targeting people who have been fighting the Occupation for nearly 60 years, and have devoted most of their lives and careers to that cause, is unfair. When this war started, we were in a state of total despair from having lost everything we believed in and loved. I believe our slowness in reacting was natural and understandable. It took us some time to understand what we were feeling and thinking, and to find the words to express it. Anyone looking for a real-time reaction should have looked elsewhere. I speak for myself and for those I have seen for years at weekly demonstrations. Our heart is in the right place, though it beats in a heartless reality.

(translation by Luis Moriones)