Asef Bayat: "Iranian are united like never before in asking a radical political change"

NEW YORK - Professor Asef Bayat, in an interview with the New Lines Magazine you said that "It is as if a 'new Iran' has been born - a 'global Iran', a collective of diverse people who are separated by geography but are very much together in feelings, in concerns and in dreams". Could you please elaborate and what you mean with a new and global Iran?

"Since the revolution of 1979, Iran has produced a sizeable diasporic population (between 4-7 million) living in different parts of the world, but mainly in the Western countries. Most of them are political immigrants or refugees-- those who felt they could not live under a despotic political system. Through the years there has been a kind of tension between Iranians in Iran and those in diaspora, even if the diasporic population remain deeply attached to Iran culturally and keep the dream of returning one day. The current episode of the uprising has brought these segments of the population together like never before. Diasporic Iranians have been extraordinarily mobilized and are deeply invested to Iranians inside the country emotionally, culturally, and politically. It looks as if the Iranian communities abroad, despite geographical distance, have become an extension of Iran, a global Iran. More importantly, the uprising seems to have united diverse segments of the populations - men and women, old and young, the poor and well-to-do, and diverse ethnicities and religious communities in an unprecedented way around the call for 'Women, Life, Liberty'. In this sense, I am saying that a new Iran has been born that wants to liberate itself from the current state of subjugation."

You said that "This current uprising has gone even further. It has brought together the urban middle class, the middle-class poor, slum dwellers and people with different ethnic identities - Kurds, Fars, Azeri Turks and Baluchis - all under the message of "Woman, Life, Freedom." Significantly, this is an uprising in which women play a central part. These features distinguish this uprising from the previous ones." What does it mean in terms of the possible outcomes of the protests?

"It means at least two things. First, that unlike the previous uprisings in 2017 when different social constituencies made their own particular claims (like workers for delayed wages, farmers for irrigating water, creditors for lost credits, etc.) or in 2019 when the protests were for the economic claims, in the current uprising all these different groups have transcended their particularistic claims in favor of a greater good, embodied in the call for 'Women, Life, Liberty'. These groups seem to see their concerns are reflected in the elevation of 'Women, Life, Liberty'. This gives the movement a revolutionary character. Secondly, this is a movement that has recognized the 'women's question' as central political issue and women as a subject of liberation for all. And this makes the current political uprising in Iran quite singular."

Do you see this uprising as a potential existential threat to the regime?

"Potential, yes. Because the demand for Woman, Life, Liberty contradicts the core of the regime's ideology - its structural misogyny, its colonization of the lifeworld, and its acute despotism, which are all enforced by reference to 'divine values'. On the other hand, the movement at this time seems to have gone beyond wanting to reform the regime, in the way that people did during the reform episode of the 2000s under President Khatami. Today, the movement seems to want a regime change.

But is the uprising a real existential threat to the regime?

This we do not know. That will depend on how long the movement can carry on with the protests, how organized it will become, and to what extent it can mobilize the workers, teachers, shop keepers, or people from the clerical class or reformists. It will also depend on how much more the regime might extend its violent crackdown, or whether there will be split within the ranks of the regime. We still do not have answers to these questions."

You said that "There are similarities between the current uprising in Iran and the uprisings of the Arab Spring, especially in terms of the initial spark and the beginning of street protests", however we know what happened in Egypt and the Arab Spring didn't generate any concrete change toward democracy. Could the protests in Iran produce a different outcome and how?

"That is true, Arab Spring was in general a failure as far as transition to democracy is concerned. Perhaps Tunisia and Sudan are somewhat exceptions, even though Tunisia experienced a constitutional coup by President Kais Saiid and Sudan saw a counter-revolution coup by General Burhan. Nevertheless, Tunisia today is by far less repressive and more pluralistic than it was under President Ben Ali. And in Sudan, the revolutionaries resisted the coup so that it failed to restore the military rule. And now there is a shared civilian-military transitional government that is to end in a full civilian governance within two years. In brief, in these countries, the uprisings forced the dictators to abdicate. Now, in Iran today, we still do not know where the uprising will lead to. We do not know if the regime will succeed to crush the opposition. But even if the protests slow down for a while, another trigger down the road will likely ignite another cycle of protests. The opposition will not go away so long as the regime remains the same. But to be transformative politically, the opposition will need sooner or later to get organized and develop a broad vision about the future social order and a strategy as to how to achieve that."

You said that "The overarching call for 'Woman, Life, Freedom' has made the current protest movement in Iran quite singular." How significant is the fact that women are leading the protests?

"The central role of women in the uprising is very significant. Perhaps for the first time in Iran and probably anywhere, we see a recognition in a country of 'woman question' as a central theme of a nationwide revolutionary movement and women as the key subject of social and political transformation. There seems to be a recognition that the liberation of women would lead to the liberation of other oppressed constituencies - like the demasculinized men, marginalized youths, religious minorities, and politically-suppressed citizens. It is true, women are spearheading a struggle to liberate the everyday life which has been subjugated by the patriarchal clerical rulers. Such liberation struggle is likely to emancipate not only women, but also multiple oppressed constituencies. The very recognition that women are central in these struggles is in itself a significant shift in the Iranian subjectivity. And this gives the movement a unique quality."

How do you interpret the presence of so many youths and teenagers in the streets?

"The regime's colonization of the lifeworld has affected women and youth more than others. The regime wants to micro-manage people's everyday lives - what to wear, where to go, what to watch or read, pray or not to pray. The clerical rulers explicitly say that they want to 'engineer culturè in their own image. For decades, many young people, women and men, have felt that the regime's 'cultural engineering' and harsh social control have deprived them of simply 'being young' like other young persons in the world. Many express that they have fallen old before experiencing youthfulness. No wonder that one of their implicit claims is to take back their youthfulness. At the same time, the economic mismanagement, rising inequality, and marginalization have robbed many young people of hope for a happy transition to adult life. How can they form a family when they remain in a constant state of precarity and deprivation? This must be a devastating feeling especially when most of these youths are educated with college degrees and aware of so many good things in the world (consumer goods, housing, traveling, respect) and how much deprived they are from those things. This feeling is a symptom of the 'middle class poor', a class that is playing key role in revolutionary politics in today's Middle East. Finally, young people are present in the streets of the uprising more than others because of their 'youth affordancè - that is, their physical ability, agility, 'structural irresponsibility', networks of friendship, and technological savviness - that give them a comparative advantage in being active in street politics."

What could the Western countries do to help the protests to succeed, and how would you define success for this movement?
"We have already seen an incredible international solidarity on the part of the peoples and civil society organizations around the world. Mahsa Amini's hashtag has surpassed 100 million. Such solidarity is certainly empowering for those women and men who have put their lives on a difficult struggle in the hope that they can reclaim their lives from an internal colonization, to take back their dignity and live a normal dignified life. This hope is unlikely to be fulfilled unless there occurs a meaningful change, a profound political and structural transformation."